The statistics on his church are incorrect. They have roughly 1300 members with average overall attendance at 5771 total for 2007-2008. This can be found on their mission and vision website. http://www.voxpopnetwork.com
It says that average attendance for 2007-2008 is 5771. If attendance has been growing over that year, it is possibly up about the 6000-7000 mark now. But 8000 seems an exaggeration…
It’s no revelation that articles can be wrong – Journalists are notoriously innacurate. That report you reference lists 8000 as the highest attendence yet. (It might also depend on whether you count multiple visitors once or twice )
Certain guys like to throw around numbers and name drop. The news reporters pick it up and report it as fact. The more telling numbers are how many sheep remain, and how many fall away. Nobody reports those. Maybe some savvy reporter wil look into that. Incredibly, there are some “pastors” of megachurches out there who actually teach that to make “your” church grow, it’s actually a good idea to lose a bunch of sheep. I am sure glad that was not Jesus’ prayer.
You’re right, Thomas – one of my criticisms of a local AoG church is that it has a big front door… and an even bigger back door. The fruit of that church is, in the long run, just disillusionment and bitterness with Christianity.
It’s definitely not Jesus’ prayer. But it’s also not necessarily true of Mark’s church (and, after listening to many hours of his sermons, I’m sure it would certainly devastate Mark). In fact, it’s not even necessarily characteristic of megachurches.
Reporters might like name-dropping and statistics, but I very much dislike baseless insinuation.
Oh, but thanks for your comment! (Sorry for the tone of my last comment – its midnight and I need to be out of bed in less than 6 hours. Its going to be a good day tomorrow…)
You do make a good point, but I’m not yet ready to apply it to Mark.
While I don’t know where the reporter got her number from, Mark Driscoll himself said 8000; I heard him last night.
But that’s not the point.
The point is – I have to wonder if it actually matters whether it is 2000, 5000, 8000, 10,000 or whether Mars Hill needs his own Olympic stadium – the point the reporter is trying to make is not the number, but instead the number is used to illustrate the point; and the point is that that particular ministry has grown significantly.
(This is pressing my buttons because most journalists try to get it right, but have limited time and budget – is it worth the SMH’s time and money to send someone to Mars Hill to count heads? – they have to trust someone for that info. Journalists are fallible, but are expected to be instant experts on everything. Their sources are fallible too. Yet in the grand scheme of the article it is insignificant. So much more to get upset about here…)
Good point – thanks for the balance. You’re right about the point of the number. And we should give journalists a bit of slack too… though, in many articles where I’ve known the person/situation personally, their fact-checking has been pretty atrocious. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky. And of course it isn’t generalisable to the whole profession…
Funny how we read things differently (although, to be fair, I read it quickly).
I found the tone favourable towards Mark, which (from secular media) was both welcome and surprising. The controversy… it would be hardly possible to write an article on the guy without a mention of some controversy… and I didn’t think its mention was really a drawback.
But I see where you’re coming from. Do you live in Australia, by the way?
The statistics on his church are incorrect. They have roughly 1300 members with average overall attendance at 5771 total for 2007-2008. This can be found on their mission and vision website. http://www.voxpopnetwork.com
Where specifically on the website Fred? I had a quick look but could see nothing about membership or baptism. Could you link to the actual page?
Ok, found it – http://assets.marshillchurch.org/media/2008/08/01/20080801_mars-hill-quarterly-summer-2008_document.pdf
It says that average attendance for 2007-2008 is 5771. If attendance has been growing over that year, it is possibly up about the 6000-7000 mark now. But 8000 seems an exaggeration…
It’s no revelation that articles can be wrong – Journalists are notoriously innacurate. That report you reference lists 8000 as the highest attendence yet. (It might also depend on whether you count multiple visitors once or twice
)
Thanks for the pickup, though
Certain guys like to throw around numbers and name drop. The news reporters pick it up and report it as fact. The more telling numbers are how many sheep remain, and how many fall away. Nobody reports those. Maybe some savvy reporter wil look into that. Incredibly, there are some “pastors” of megachurches out there who actually teach that to make “your” church grow, it’s actually a good idea to lose a bunch of sheep. I am sure glad that was not Jesus’ prayer.
You’re right, Thomas – one of my criticisms of a local AoG church is that it has a big front door… and an even bigger back door. The fruit of that church is, in the long run, just disillusionment and bitterness with Christianity.
It’s definitely not Jesus’ prayer. But it’s also not necessarily true of Mark’s church (and, after listening to many hours of his sermons, I’m sure it would certainly devastate Mark). In fact, it’s not even necessarily characteristic of megachurches.
Reporters might like name-dropping and statistics, but I very much dislike baseless insinuation.
Oh, but thanks for your comment! (Sorry for the tone of my last comment – its midnight and I need to be out of bed in less than 6 hours. Its going to be a good day tomorrow…)
You do make a good point, but I’m not yet ready to apply it to Mark.
I’m afraid this is pressing my buttons!
While I don’t know where the reporter got her number from, Mark Driscoll himself said 8000; I heard him last night.
But that’s not the point.
The point is – I have to wonder if it actually matters whether it is 2000, 5000, 8000, 10,000 or whether Mars Hill needs his own Olympic stadium – the point the reporter is trying to make is not the number, but instead the number is used to illustrate the point; and the point is that that particular ministry has grown significantly.
(This is pressing my buttons because most journalists try to get it right, but have limited time and budget – is it worth the SMH’s time and money to send someone to Mars Hill to count heads? – they have to trust someone for that info. Journalists are fallible, but are expected to be instant experts on everything. Their sources are fallible too. Yet in the grand scheme of the article it is insignificant. So much more to get upset about here…)
Good point – thanks for the balance. You’re right about the point of the number. And we should give journalists a bit of slack too… though, in many articles where I’ve known the person/situation personally, their fact-checking has been pretty atrocious. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky. And of course it isn’t generalisable to the whole profession…
What is the ‘more’ to get upset about here?
‘More’? – well that would be the journalist’s enthusiasm to bring out the controversy – three paragraphs on something that happened two years ago.
But most of all? The ever-so-slightly patronising tone through the article.
Funny how we read things differently (although, to be fair, I read it quickly).
I found the tone favourable towards Mark, which (from secular media) was both welcome and surprising. The controversy… it would be hardly possible to write an article on the guy without a mention of some controversy… and I didn’t think its mention was really a drawback.
But I see where you’re coming from. Do you live in Australia, by the way?
Yep, I’m in Oz – that’s how I heard Mark Driscoll say “8000″ last night.
It wasn’t really the controversy that got me – it was the patronising/slightly sneering tone.
Although it could certainly have been a lot worse. A LOT LOT LOT worse.
yea i second that as well, i recall him saying 8000 the night i was there as well. hayesy did you buy any of his books?
Nah, was very tempted but the queue was too long. Ricky has one, might borrow his when he’s finished…
yea i got his one that talks about how he setup and defined his church etc.. u can have it when im done
nice! hav u started it? any good?
ive read 20 pages lol, like 5 pages a nite.. you know me
yea its alrite, so far gone through all the diff typed of churchs and stuff an how to choose what church you should start up
you planning on starting one? (only half joking.)
no lol, but mayb you would, so i can now give you guidance
Don’t write off the idea too soon – you can’t be sure what God will call you to.
Mark did say we need to be more entreprenerial.