Michelle‘s comment on this afternoon’s post about Fair Trade made me realise, as I somewhat suspected, that there is more to the ‘fair trade’ business than meets the eye.
I definitely need to do a lot more research! I’m still very new to the whole idea. Michelle, do you know if what you said applies to chocolate too, or is it mainly coffee?
She asked “if you stop buying slave-produced chocolate, the slave traders will just let them go? Or will they sell them into sex slavery or something worse?”
Good question. No answers at the moment, might come up with a few later. Anyone else want to comment? I really need to know more about the conditions of the slaves & industry before I can hope to answer that.
Here’s what I reckon won’t change:
Don’t stop caring about the poor and oppressed.
Do nag the big chocolate and coffee companies to stop exploiting workers.
Do keep eating Fair Trade. (It sends a message to the above companies that people care).
Do discuss the issue with your friends.
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Hi,
I don’t know you but read your blog… One thing that frustrated me some years ago (well it might have been 2000 or 2001) was the way people would complain about working conditions in parts of what used to be the Asian third world, while at the same time expecting people to not take a job (which in many places is one chance to work and eat and also brings food) in those same global companies.
Fair trade will only exist when Africans can sell their products in Europe (and around the world) for the same income per kg as the European farmers (and funnily enough this trade will also be free).
Yes we should encourage good ownership practices, and good farming technology, and the payment of good prices for resources, but in the end, there needs to be a focus on the real wealth creation from Agricultural trade liberalisation, not just a trendy movement of concern in the west which in some ways may discourage the trade which people are relying on for their livelihood.
Pete, thanks for your comment!
You make a good point (though really only show me how totally ignorant I am!)
As I understand, Fair Trade was actually set up quite deliberately in contrast to free trade, which I was under the impression would not lead to better conditions. (Of course, I’m likely to be wrong!)
Another thing to remember is that living on $3 a day sounds like an utter impossibility to us, but in a country which is cheaper to live in, it might be quite sufficient. (I am reminded of Chinese farmers I saw, who break their backs to earn less each week than the local bus fare to the market. They carry their produce. And survive). I’m not saying poverty is not terrible, but numbers need some context.
Could you please explain in a bit more detail this: “a trendy movement of concern in the west which in some ways may discourage the trade which people are relying on for their livelihood.”
Thanks again for your comment. Glad to hear I have a reader
Looks like I’ve bitten off a bigger issue than I was prepared for
Hypothetically, let’s say we slowly stop eating chocolate from these companies and by 2010 slave chocolate has been abolished. The demand for “anti-slave” chocolate is going to skyrocket, thus pushing prices up dramatically. You’d be seeing something like $20-30 + for a block of chocolate! (Maybe even more, I don’t yet know how to work that out)
Now personally speaking I wouldn’t buy chocolate at that price, I’d start buying substitute goods, for example lollies. Now if everyone is thinking the same thing.. Then the price of lollies is indeed going to inflate as well. Your end result in the short term is going to see small amount or none of ”slave” chocolate being produced and high prices for confectionery for quite a long time.
Now because the demand for chocolate or cocoa is in such demand you are going to see more local producers (anti-slave producers) enter the market as they see the chance for big profits and it is more feasible. Over time you will have many producers and the price of chocolate will come down. It seems Cadbury has already made steps in the right direction (see this article) but I don’t exactly see how that is going to stop slave labour.. it looks like they’re just making sure there supply of chocolate doesn’t run out. (Correct me if I’m wrong)
Now this is a huge process and economically speaking would take decades to transform. I don’t think this would happen as it would take many more years to abolish slave labour and get 100% of the public to recognise what is happening. Also, what is going to happen to all those children who were getting fed by the cocoa growers? Are they going to move elsewhere to get food? I’m not exactly on either side of the argument simply laying down some points. What do you think?
I have to go to bed now, but I’ll come back tomorrow. I know nothing about chocolate, but a bit when it comes to coffee – I don’t know if the same principle is at work.
I also want to know what ‘slave’ actually means? Is it an exploited worker, ie, one who gets paid jack-all for a hard job, or the truer meaning of slavery, as in forced into it with no choice and traded like a commodity? Massive difference.
Anyhoo, in the words of the incomporable Govenator, “I’ll be back”.
that’s incomparable, my bad …
Yeah, I need to clarify ‘slave’ too.
hehe governator.
Hmm. in this situation i think they aren’t slaves. Where else are they going to work? They might actually enjoy working and getting food and a bed (if they do.) They might not know or have experienced anything different.
If western society manages to switch to fair-trade goods the price will increase. This shapes the demand of goods drastically changing in proportion to the change in the major companies target market – from mass to niche market.
Our achievement would be large companies paying farmers enough to pay their workers per amount of cocoa beans! however with a massive decrease in demand the farmers may be forced to consider taking advantage of their workers once again.
Confusing… here’s an example:
Currently we have massive demand and small payment = small profit
Soon we will have small demand and large payment = small profit
I believe both of which lead to exploitation
Western society is naive in thinking we can solve this problem without creating another. Such as history shows us in abolishing slavery, where in reality we abolished legal slavery which created more illegal slavery offshore.
TODD! Woo!
I hadn’t thought of any of that. Do you really think demand will drop that significantly? Clearly if the 99c blocks and cheapo easter eggs disappear people will consume less chocolate as a whole… but I think chocolate as a product is so addictive it will never really shrink that much.
Maybe.
Don’t forget (well, maybe young people will have forgotten, but dad reminds me) that chocolate is a luxury item. People will pay a premium for it, like they pay for flashy cars and designer sunnies.
That reminds me: hasn’t the price of chocolate plummeted in the last couple of years (maybe even decades). Is that just due to cheaper manufacturing? I doubt it. Someone is getting worked over.
And, I don’t think the companies marketing in the el-cheapo niche will be influenced by the fair trade movement, they aren’t trying to sell to the premium market anyway. The consumer has most power over the companies who try to sell to the widest market possible – the middle quality, like Nestle, Cadbury, Mars, even stuff like Lindt.
Todd, someone could argue that we have limited control of illegal slavery but can control legal slavery, so we should control what we can. I suppose the question is, what can we do about offshore illegal slavery?
Good to see you around! I got your sms by the way, I’m on it. Hows my jumper?
Hey man,
Chocolate prices have decreased i think of late, which i was stoked about until all of this discussion.
I really do think the demand will heco decrease, it is addictive but i think personally speaking like VK said i’d probably resort to lollies or something, however i don’t believe lolly prices will increase due to this or anything…
I know many people that horde chocolate as its cheap and extremely addictive, but under the right pricings i think people will get over buying chocolate…
maybe, maybe not really.. time will tell
i just don’t want us westerners to walk in like a 500 player trumping as we go and then looking back and realising nothing has changed… if anything we might have decreased employment and working conditions further in Africa…
it seems we’re caught between worlds, even with correct payment we’re paying the farmers, not the workers. The final say is in their hands, and we have no real influence as they are outside of our law.
As far as legal slavery goes, its still illegal to us. Does it exist? the country harbouring the slavery views it as legal but all slavery to us is illegal.
so realistically we sit in our comfort with all of our societies wisdom (sarcastically) trying to dictate the rest of the world’s actions but i just don’t think we’ve thought it out enough to make any rash decisions without causing such possible theoretical consequences
i’m goin to bed… tehehe thanks for the loan! yeeewww
Sticking with what I know, so I’m going back to coffee for a second.
All this price go up, people buy less … you reckon?
Coffee is the second most traded commodity, after … oil! Prices have gone up! I’m paying around 50% more for greens than I was two years ago. Has consumption gone down? Heck no! (And not just mine!) Every crop of Jamaica Blue Mountain still disappears into Japan at over $100/kg (green, not roasted!).
Fairtrade coffee is generally only about 50c/kg more expensive as greens, and sometimes it’s cheaper, yet people are walking into a cafe and paying around $1, $1.50 more for a cup of FT coffee. (For those not in the know, it’s generally 7-10g/cup per coffee shot). Who’s winning there? Hmm, you reckon those cafe owners are sending the money back to oxfam? Again, another FT problem – massive price gouging on the part of cafe owners and roasters!
more soon …
should mention I’m talking Specialty Grade Arabica, gotta compare apples with apples. Can’t compare Specialty Grade Arabica FT coffee, with nasty low grade robusta.
“I’m paying around 50% more for greens than I was two years ago. ”
That increase your talking about there is also to do with inflation, not really demand and supply pushing up those prices.
Alot of other supermarket goods have had large increases. For example..
)
Natural confectionery/Starburst – About a year ago these were under $2 in most super markets, now they are $2.50 a pack. Thats a 20% increase in 1 year. (I know my confectionery
A little side note, do you know after an item has been place on special the price usually goes up with a new ticket on the shelf?
“All this price go up, people buy less … you reckon?”
Yes i do reckon people will buy less. If a jar of coffee goes up to $50 for 500g tomorrow will you buying the same amount? Or will you be looking for substitute goods and using your other $45 elsewhere? I don’t kno how much you like your coffee, but i know alot of people that would soon find their coffee addiction less addictive.
50% inflation in 2 years? Unlikely! And Michelle’s point wasn’t the cause of the increase, but rather that despite the increase she, and everyone else, is still buying it.
Haha VK, I do know how much Michelle likes her coffee. A lot. Here’s the thing: what is the natural substitute for coffee? There are very few hot drinks like it. Americans find tea too weak, hot chocolate is not so good for you, and neither have the caffeine boost to which our culture is so addicted!
Thanks for your thoughts guys, I’ll write more after I’ve submitted this greek homework. (eek! 25 mins!)
That increase your talking about there is also to do with inflation, not really demand and supply pushing up those prices.
Rubbish. And petrol prices are just reflecting inflation too, right?
Yes i do reckon people will buy less. If a jar of coffee goes up to $50 for 500g tomorrow will you buying the same amount? Or will you be looking for substitute goods and using your other $45 elsewhere? I don’t kno how much you like your coffee, but i know alot of people that would soon find their coffee addiction less addictive.
Ok, I don’t buy ‘jars’ of coffee. That stuff is EVIL. I buy greens, usually pretty much direct from the importer, and roast my own coffee, so I’m talking price of greens, not that instant rubbish that is the root of all evil.
I also don’t ‘do’ caffeine addiction. Get on the third wave man! Coffee’s not about caffeine anymore. The third wave is all about coffee as a culinary experince, not a ‘hit’.
A bit OT, but I’ve gotta go to Kindy Gym so…
ok well mayb i have nn idea about coffee or tea inflation haha. I jumped straight into that one without thinking of the arguments. I don’t actually drink the stuff either, so i wouldn’t know whats good or bad coffee.
Regarding what i said about price going up and people buying less. This is the case, but it also depends on how much of an individuals disposable income is needed in buying the good. So if i say i love tic tacs and the price goes up 100%. Im likely still to buy them because the prices is still relatively low compared to my disposable income. Make sense?
Hahaha no way dude, I’m surfing the third wave man! And I didn’t even realise it. I still reckon a lot of people riding it are probably addicted more than they know (evidence by what happens when they try to have a break – like my dad).
If someone can’t start the day without a coffee, I’d call it an addiction.
Hahaha kindy gym. Those were the days… what’s OT?
Off Topic. This was a discussion about the merits of Fair Trade, not my caffeine consumption and the third wave, but I just got a bit antsy at the suggestion I drink coffee that comes from a jar
Here’s some more things to think about … where do you buy your clothes? Are they made in a sweat shop? Even in Australia we have a lot of migrant workers working in terrible conditions for below legal pay rates.
What about all your computer gizmo stuff. Drew told me recently about these Indian workers who melt down old motherboards(?) to get the metal components out of them. They usually live for two-three years after taking the job as they are exposed to mercury and lead (I can’t remember the details, and know nothing about computers stuff).
Also, I’m not sure how it works with cocoa, but in coffee FT guarantees a minimum price per pound, not a minimum wage for the farmers. Even farmers working on FT certified farms could be being paid unfairly.
Also, just ’cause it seems to have been overlooked in the above discussions, cocoa and coffee don’t just come from Africa! Both crops are also grown extensively in South and Central America, PNG, Indonesia, India, etc.
It is a right and good thing to be thinking through how we can support the cause of the needy and the oppressed, I’m just not sure Fair Trade as it currently exists is doing a good job. I’ve been a bit frustrated lately with lots of people I know jumping on the Fair Trade bandwagon and thinking it will fix all the world’s problems.
One of the other positives of the third wave has been the increasing popularity of direct trade. It’s a win-win for everyone. The farmers get paid substantially more than they would dealing on the open market, the roaster’s get a quality product, as the well-paid farmers are now super-motivated to produce high quality gear, and the middle men are cut out (does this sound like I’m talking about illicit substances?!).
This comment is now so long I can’t remember where it started …
I’ve heard the argument before that ‘if you’re going to start picking on chocolate then shouldn’t you look at everything that might be questionable?’
Well, yes. But a) something is better than nothing, and b) baby steps in the right direction must surely be better than being paralysed into inaction at the sight of the task.
“FT guarantees a minimum price per pound, not a minimum wage for the farmers. Even farmers working on FT certified farms could be being paid unfairly.”
A great point – we discussed this at phat. Its not the ultimate solution, for sure. I think someone mentioned ‘slave free’ chocolate, but I’m not sure if that’s actually real or not.
Direct Trade sounds great, but will it ever become the common way people buy coffee? I think the majority of Australians aren’t aware that Nescafe isn’t the pinacle of coffee culture.
I didn’t mean “the problem is too big so do nothing”. It’s just worth thinking about and being aware of.
Direct Trade sounds great, but will it ever become the common way people buy coffee? I think the majority of Australians aren’t aware that Nescafe isn’t the pinacle of coffee culture.
It’s becoming surprisingly more commonplace in the industry, and there are people who tour the globe buying micro-lots directly
from the growers on behalf of a bunch of coffee collectives.
Don’t worry, I have big plans for the Central Coast coffee scene
Educating the masses! Down with Nescafe and its evil compatriots.
Big Plans? Sounds exciting!
Oh, and earlier you said something about paying an extra $1.50 for a fair trade coffee. I reckon coffee prices vary more according to the particular shop than anything else. In fact, a poor coffee from a tiny kiosk cost about the same as one from Campos or even Fair Trade.
No, I mean the same cafe charging extra for a Fair Trade blend over their regular blend.