Man, I’ve written about 10 drafts in response and I can’t put my thoughts into words. Perhaps a bit of time to reflect over the scriptures would clear my thoughts.

I don’t have a problem with the way you are talking about Spirit-Baptism and the guys you’re pointing to like Wesley, Whitefield, Edwards assure me of that.

I’m just sensitive to this topic cause my recent discussions with friends over finding a church home mix in very different circles and take Spirit-Baptism as a leading step to denying Jesus being God while on earth. Weird I know.

There’s a challenge for ya: how could believing in a form of Spirit-Baptism lead to believing Jesus was only a man.

I’ll respond to your questions hopefully tonight.

Peace bro

And of course it not an essential aspect of the gospel – if we’re speaking in terms of what happens in God’s acts of redemption and the way to salvation. It is rather something extra.

What form would you expect his writing to take? It’s no use exhorting them to have something happen to them which has already happened and over which they have no control. There might be instruction on what it is etc but then, he cannot write about everything.

We also must be careful of projecting our own concerns onto the text: why would we think this was even an issue for Paul? That is, its absence does not imply that it is not a crucial doctrine; only that its clarification or defense was not crucial at the time.
At his time, perhaps there was no question of whether they were different – everyone knew that first hand.
How could Paul have known that 2000 years later churches would be so practically atheistic in expectation and practice that the question would arise?

And this is where I find the epistles very challenging. How many Christians in our churches really know the joy of 1 Peter 1:9, the love of Romans 5:5, the assurance and communion of Romans 8:14-15.
We don’t ressonate with them, do we? Why not, I wonder…

Actually, I do resonate with this, to a degree: 2 of my friends have experienced Spirt-baptism. One suffered depression for a couple of years, and her gift of tongues was the basis of the assurance which got her through it.
Then there is the experiences of people like Blaise Pascal, Jonathan Edwards, DL Moody, John Wesley, Charles Simeon, John Flavel, a member of George Whitefield’s congregation November 5th 1740… I could go on – these men knew of God’s grace and believed in Him, yet were taken deeper by an overwhelming outpouring of God’s love into their hearts, an extraordinary revelation of God’s glory; after which all had a level of assurance they had never had before.

But I want to recount just one story in particular: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. I don’t know whether it was in the body or out of the body — God knows. And I know that this man… was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

That account of that man’s experience… is from 2 Corinthians 12.

I wasn’t arguing that the Romans didn’t experience Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They must of to be Christian. That’s my position.

My logic regarding Romans would be:

1. Paul didn’t write about Baptism of the Holy Spirit
2. Paul did write about almost every aspect of the gospel
3. Therefore Baptism of the Holy Spirit wasn’t important enough
4. Therefore it cannot be a crucial doctrine
5. Therefore it has to be tied up somehow with conversion or something that happens without you needing knowledge of it
6. Therefore Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a post-conversion / receiving of giftings for ministry / crucial step in Christian life

I’m very happy for you to challenge my steps and assumptions.

Haven’t read the Dr on this topic but will check it out. Thanks

What do you think of Lloyd-Jones argument above that you never see them exhorted to be baptised because they already are? He argues, in fact, that this fact is essential in interpreting them – and one of my good mates agrees that many hard passages are made much easier with this assumption…

I might even suggest the Romans had been Spirit-baptised. See especially Romans 5:5, but also 16:14-15

I feel similar to yourself in wanting a fair-trial for Baptism Of The Holy Spirit. Andrew Heard wrote a good article awhile back highlighting the dangers of a ‘two-step’ Christianity, and I’ve seen this play out recently with us looking for a church home.

I still feel the “You never find the epistles exhorting people to be baptised with the Spirit” fairly valid, especially in Paul’s letter to the Romans, where he basically says he hasn’t visited Rome yet so he’ll assume nothing and step through the whole good news of Christ.

Piper is also very good on this subject, like you mentioned, making a great point for some kind of tangible evidence or experience of receiving the Holy Spirit.