I’m reading Holy Spirit: Revelation & Revolution by Reinhard Bonnke. Its the kind of book that I would normally judge other people for reading.
I was skeptical… but… It’s fantastic!
Occasionally he says things which I think are unbiblical (eg Arminianism, or saying the Holy Spirit is creator and sustainer [true] in a sentence very similar to Colossians 1:17, which is about Jesus). A discerning reader should be able to spot them, however.
Sometimes I read things that raise my skeptic’s eyebrow – but turn out to be solid teaching. I’m reading through Acts at the moment and listening through John Piper’s series on it, and all 3 are converging on the same truths. (John is the reason I’m even remotely charismatic. I can pin it down to this (awesome) sermon.) For example, I just finished the chapter on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I thought “what rot!”… until that afternoon I heard Piper show it from the Bible.
By and large it is a great book, showing clearly the shortcomings of a church body who has largely ignored 1/3 of the trinity for too long. It’s a very needed book. Look out for upcoming quotes.
I amaze myself: I recommend it.
“A discerning reader should be able to spot them, however”
And therein lies the problem, no? You have been brought up on solid food, on truthful teaching, so you have the luxury of being discerning. Consider especially vs 14.
Ephesians 4:11-16: And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Ok, I can’t work your buttons for some reason… vs 14 was supposed to be underlined.
vs 14 is this bit: ‘so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes’.
Having been grounded in truth, you CAN read and discern. Others, having been blown around by every wave of doctrine, have no such grounding, and guess what; they are carried around by the next wave, and the next, and never grow to ‘mature manhood’.
Note that I’m not actually offering any commentary about the theological content you’ve discussed, more the danger of saying that it doesn’t matter what you fill your mind with. Some people have very little discernment, and so you actually may not being helping them to grow to maturity.
Incidentally, so I can answer an earlier question
, I was wondering what the heck a ‘charismatic-with-a-seatbelt’ is?
hahaha a charismatic-with-a-seatbelt is what I am
Mark Driscoll invented the term, basically it’s someone who has charismatic theology (or at least, isn’t a cessationist) but doesn’t go completely nuts (charismaniac, with tambourines etc)
You make a good point. Perhaps I should qualify my recommendation: I recommend the book to discerning readers.
“who has charismatic theology” … ermm, that’s a pretty vague statement. What, your theology is based on experience over and above the Scriptures? What do you mean?
Cessationist? No more miracles, just specific for Acts/time of apostles? I’m not a cessationist, but I would never term myself charismatic, given that the general association is one in which experience is valued more than Scripture.
Hang on, what was the question you asked me originally, I’ll go find it … ahh … “On a completely unrelated note, just curious about your theological views on sign gifts? (cessationist, charismatic-with-a-seatbelt ect? somehow I don’t think you’re a charismaniac)”
Ok. Cessationist? No. Seatbelt wearer? Nope. Charismaniac? Nuh-uh.
I doubt I fit into any particular ‘school of thought’, becasue I haven’t really schooled my thoughts. I think I’ve said his before (and been misunderstood before
), but as much as I think there may be, and probably are, such giftings, I don’t think it’s helpful to go chasing after them as ends in themselves, and as some kind of ‘more spiritual spirituality’. Of course God could choose to bestow them. Of course He could, He is the Sovereign King, Creator, Ruler! Does He? Honestly, I only know one person who who speaks in tongues, and is given to ecstatic experiences, and I know this is never public. Is it genuine? I have no reason to doubt it would be. Are you thinking along the lines of how I understand 1 Corinthians 12 /14? Is that the question?
“There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”
Like I said. Do I doubt there are people with these gifts? No. But I am concerned when they are used to build up one person, rather than the body. And I am concerned when people are made to feel second-rate because they don’t have a particular gift. You don’t see too many people chasing after “gifts of administration” (v.28)…
Has this even answered your question?
Hmm, I think my lines between ‘charismatic’ and ‘pentecostal’ are blurry. As far as ‘???????’, well, it seems to me that it’s clear enough that such gifts are given for the building up of the body.
“Are you thinking along the lines of how I understand 1 Corinthians 12 /14? Is that the question? ”
Yep.
“There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”
Like I said. Do I doubt there are people with these gifts? No. But I am concerned when they are used to build up one person, rather than the body. And I am concerned when people are made to feel second-rate because they don’t have a particular gift. You don’t see too many people chasing after “gifts of administration” (v.28)…
You took the words right out of my mouth.
“What, your theology is based on experience over and above the Scriptures? What do you mean? … I would never term myself charismatic, given that the general association is one in which experience is valued more than Scripture.”
That’s emphatically not what I mean by the term at all! haha nothing could be farther from the truth: going to CCEC, I have very little experience which would point towards my belief that signs and wonders are for today. It is precisely because I value Scripture highly that I believe that.
I’m still working out what I believe, but my attitude towards each claim has been “I don’t know. If it’s in the Bibble, I’ll believe it.” And, gradually, I’m finding it more and more in the Bible.
I’m not particularly schooled either. Perhaps I’m using a word that has its own trailer-full of baggage which I’m completely ignorant of. I use the word largely because Covenant Life Church (CJ Mahaney, Joshua Harris) call their theology “reformed charismatic” and they have an equally high view of Scripture and very solid teachings, theologically.
Yeah, my statement is pretty vague… hmmm… I think partly its because I’m still working it out, though partly its that I have an essay due tomorrow. I suppose a bare-bones account of my theology is that every believer recieves the Holy Spirit when they are born-again, who dwells in them to sanctify them, to illuminate the Scriptures ect, and that supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to believers today, in different forms in different people, for the building up of the body, especially but not soley for mission, and that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an annointing of the Spirit different to that of the new birth which is available to believers today, which is not necessary for salvation but is an extra work of God which brings gifts of extraodinary power, again for the building up of the body. I don’t think that tongues are the sign of the Baptism. I do think that it is good to seek gifts (1 Cor. 14:1, 12) but certainly not for selfish reasons and not desiring only ‘flashy gifts’.
Somewhere in there is my seatbelt…. I suppose you could say that my seatbelt is my regard for the Bible as the highest authority.
Is that more clear? I agree with everything you’ve written, except whether or not we are to seek gifts.
“and that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an annointing of the Spirit different to that of the new birth which is available to believers today, which is not necessary for salvation but is an EXTRA work of God which brings gifts of extraodinary power, again for the building up of the body”
Hmm. I think I disagree. Can you point me to some Scripture for that one?
As far as seeking gifts, can I stress that I mean seeking after them as an end in themselves! Surely if we’re seeking to serve, they’ll become apparent. That’s good.
Try reading/listening to this and, if you want more, this. I listened to them this weekend.