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	<title>Comments on: Reading Charismaniac books&#8230; and liking them.</title>
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	<description>&#34;For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain&#34;</description>
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		<title>By: hayesy</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1977</link>
		<dc:creator>hayesy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 07:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Try reading/listening to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1990/726_You_Will_Be_Baptized_with_the_Holy_Spirit/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; and, if you want more, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/7/727_You_Shall_Receive_Power_Till_Jesus_Comes/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;. I listened to them this weekend.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try reading/listening to <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1990/726_You_Will_Be_Baptized_with_the_Holy_Spirit/" rel="nofollow">this</a> and, if you want more, <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/7/727_You_Shall_Receive_Power_Till_Jesus_Comes/" rel="nofollow">this</a>. I listened to them this weekend.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1976</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 07:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1976</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;and &lt;/em&gt;that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an annointing of the Spirit different to that of the new birth which is available to believers today, which is not necessary for salvation but is an EXTRA work of God which brings gifts of extraodinary power, again for the building up of the body&quot;


Hmm. I think I disagree. Can you point me to some Scripture for that one?


As far as seeking gifts, can I stress that I mean seeking after them as an end in themselves! Surely if we&#039;re seeking to serve, they&#039;ll become apparent. That&#039;s good. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;and </em>that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an annointing of the Spirit different to that of the new birth which is available to believers today, which is not necessary for salvation but is an EXTRA work of God which brings gifts of extraodinary power, again for the building up of the body&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmm. I think I disagree. Can you point me to some Scripture for that one?</p>
<p>As far as seeking gifts, can I stress that I mean seeking after them as an end in themselves! Surely if we&#8217;re seeking to serve, they&#8217;ll become apparent. That&#8217;s good. </p>
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		<title>By: hayesy</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1974</link>
		<dc:creator>hayesy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 06:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1974</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Are you thinking along the lines of how I understand 1 Corinthians 12 /14? Is that the question? &quot;
Yep. 

&lt;em&gt;“There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”
 
Like I said. Do I doubt there are people with these gifts? No. But I am concerned when they are used to build up one person, rather than the body. And I am concerned when people are made to feel second-rate because they don’t have a particular gift. You don’t see too many people chasing after “gifts of administration” (v.28)…
&lt;/em&gt;You took the words right out of my mouth. 

&lt;em&gt;&quot;What, your theology is based on experience over and above the Scriptures? What do you mean? ... I would never term myself charismatic, given that the general association is one in which experience is valued more than Scripture.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
That&#039;s emphatically not what I mean by the term at all! haha nothing could be farther from the truth: going to CCEC, I have very little experience which would point towards my belief that signs and wonders &lt;em&gt;are &lt;/em&gt;for today. It is precisely because I value Scripture highly that I believe that.
I&#039;m still working out what I believe, but my attitude towards each claim has been &quot;I don&#039;t know. If it&#039;s in the Bibble, I&#039;ll believe it.&quot; And, gradually, I&#039;m finding it more and more in the Bible.

I&#039;m not particularly schooled either. Perhaps I&#039;m using a word that has its own trailer-full of baggage which I&#039;m completely ignorant of. I use the word largely because Covenant Life Church (CJ Mahaney, Joshua Harris) call their theology &quot;reformed charismatic&quot; and they have an equally high view of Scripture and very solid teachings, theologically. 

Yeah, my statement is pretty vague... hmmm... I think partly its because I&#039;m still working it out, though partly its that I have an essay due tomorrow. I suppose a bare-bones account of my theology is that every believer recieves the Holy Spirit when they are born-again, who dwells in them to sanctify them, to illuminate the Scriptures ect, and that supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; available to believers today, in different forms in different people, for the building up of the body, especially but not soley for mission, &lt;em&gt;and &lt;/em&gt;that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an annointing of the Spirit different to that of the new birth which is available to believers today, which is not necessary for salvation but is an extra work of God which brings gifts of extraodinary power, again for the building up of the body. I don&#039;t think that tongues are the sign of the Baptism. I do think that it is good to seek gifts (1 Cor. 14:1, 12) but certainly not for selfish reasons and not desiring only &#039;flashy gifts&#039;. 

Somewhere in there is my seatbelt.... I suppose you could say that my seatbelt is my regard for the Bible as the highest authority.

Is that more clear? I agree with everything you&#039;ve written, except whether or not we are to seek gifts.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Are you thinking along the lines of how I understand 1 Corinthians 12 /14? Is that the question? &#8221;<br />
Yep. </p>
<p><em>“There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.<br />
 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”<br />
 <br />
Like I said. Do I doubt there are people with these gifts? No. But I am concerned when they are used to build up one person, rather than the body. And I am concerned when people are made to feel second-rate because they don’t have a particular gift. You don’t see too many people chasing after “gifts of administration” (v.28)…<br />
</em>You took the words right out of my mouth. </p>
<p><em>&#8220;What, your theology is based on experience over and above the Scriptures? What do you mean? &#8230; I would never term myself charismatic, given that the general association is one in which experience is valued more than Scripture.&#8221;</em><br />
That&#8217;s emphatically not what I mean by the term at all! haha nothing could be farther from the truth: going to CCEC, I have very little experience which would point towards my belief that signs and wonders <em>are </em>for today. It is precisely because I value Scripture highly that I believe that.<br />
I&#8217;m still working out what I believe, but my attitude towards each claim has been &#8220;I don&#8217;t know. If it&#8217;s in the Bibble, I&#8217;ll believe it.&#8221; And, gradually, I&#8217;m finding it more and more in the Bible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not particularly schooled either. Perhaps I&#8217;m using a word that has its own trailer-full of baggage which I&#8217;m completely ignorant of. I use the word largely because Covenant Life Church (CJ Mahaney, Joshua Harris) call their theology &#8220;reformed charismatic&#8221; and they have an equally high view of Scripture and very solid teachings, theologically. </p>
<p>Yeah, my statement is pretty vague&#8230; hmmm&#8230; I think partly its because I&#8217;m still working it out, though partly its that I have an essay due tomorrow. I suppose a bare-bones account of my theology is that every believer recieves the Holy Spirit when they are born-again, who dwells in them to sanctify them, to illuminate the Scriptures ect, and that supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit <em>are</em> available to believers today, in different forms in different people, for the building up of the body, especially but not soley for mission, <em>and </em>that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an annointing of the Spirit different to that of the new birth which is available to believers today, which is not necessary for salvation but is an extra work of God which brings gifts of extraodinary power, again for the building up of the body. I don&#8217;t think that tongues are the sign of the Baptism. I do think that it is good to seek gifts (1 Cor. 14:1, 12) but certainly not for selfish reasons and not desiring only &#8216;flashy gifts&#8217;. </p>
<p>Somewhere in there is my seatbelt&#8230;. I suppose you could say that my seatbelt is my regard for the Bible as the highest authority.</p>
<p>Is that more clear? I agree with everything you&#8217;ve written, except whether or not we are to seek gifts.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1973</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 05:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1973</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I think my lines between &#039;charismatic&#039; and &#039;pentecostal&#039; are blurry. As far as &#039;???????&#039;, well, it seems to me that it&#039;s clear enough that such gifts are given for the building up of the body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I think my lines between &#8216;charismatic&#8217; and &#8216;pentecostal&#8217; are blurry. As far as &#8216;???????&#8217;, well, it seems to me that it&#8217;s clear enough that such gifts are given for the building up of the body.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1972</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 05:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1972</guid>
		<description>&quot;who has charismatic theology&quot; ... ermm, that&#039;s a pretty vague statement. What, your theology is based on experience over and above the Scriptures? What do you mean?


Cessationist? No more miracles, just specific for Acts/time of apostles? I&#039;m not a cessationist, but I would never term myself charismatic, given that the general association is one in which experience is valued more than Scripture. 


Hang on, what was the question you asked me originally, I&#039;ll go find it ... ahh ... &quot;On a completely unrelated note, just curious about your theological views on sign gifts? (cessationist, charismatic-with-a-seatbelt ect? somehow I don’t think you’re a charismaniac)&quot;


Ok. Cessationist? No. Seatbelt wearer? Nope. Charismaniac? Nuh-uh.


I doubt I fit into any particular &#039;school of thought&#039;, becasue I haven&#039;t really schooled my thoughts. I think I&#039;ve said his before (and been misunderstood before ;) ), but as much as I think there may be, and probably are, such giftings, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s helpful to go chasing after them as ends in themselves, and as some kind of &#039;more spiritual spirituality&#039;. Of course God could choose to bestow them. Of course He could, He is the Sovereign King, Creator, Ruler! Does He? Honestly, I only know one person who who speaks in tongues, and is given to ecstatic experiences, and I know this is never public. Is it genuine? I have no reason to doubt it would be. Are you thinking along the lines of how I understand 1 Corinthians 12 /14? Is that the question? 



&quot;There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good&quot;
 
Like I said. Do I doubt there are people with these gifts? No. But I am concerned when they are used to build up one person, rather than the body. And I am concerned when people are made to feel second-rate because they don&#039;t have a particular gift. You don&#039;t see too many people chasing after &quot;gifts of administration&quot; (v.28)...
 
Has this even answered your question?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;who has charismatic theology&#8221; &#8230; ermm, that&#8217;s a pretty vague statement. What, your theology is based on experience over and above the Scriptures? What do you mean?</p>
<p>Cessationist? No more miracles, just specific for Acts/time of apostles? I&#8217;m not a cessationist, but I would never term myself charismatic, given that the general association is one in which experience is valued more than Scripture. </p>
<p>Hang on, what was the question you asked me originally, I&#8217;ll go find it &#8230; ahh &#8230; &#8220;On a completely unrelated note, just curious about your theological views on sign gifts? (cessationist, charismatic-with-a-seatbelt ect? somehow I don’t think you’re a charismaniac)&#8221;</p>
<p>Ok. Cessationist? No. Seatbelt wearer? Nope. Charismaniac? Nuh-uh.</p>
<p>I doubt I fit into any particular &#8216;school of thought&#8217;, becasue I haven&#8217;t really schooled my thoughts. I think I&#8217;ve said his before (and been misunderstood before <img src='http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  ), but as much as I think there may be, and probably are, such giftings, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s helpful to go chasing after them as ends in themselves, and as some kind of &#8216;more spiritual spirituality&#8217;. Of course God could choose to bestow them. Of course He could, He is the Sovereign King, Creator, Ruler! Does He? Honestly, I only know one person who who speaks in tongues, and is given to ecstatic experiences, and I know this is never public. Is it genuine? I have no reason to doubt it would be. Are you thinking along the lines of how I understand 1 Corinthians 12 /14? Is that the question? </p>
<p>&#8220;There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.<br />
 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good&#8221;<br />
 <br />
Like I said. Do I doubt there are people with these gifts? No. But I am concerned when they are used to build up one person, rather than the body. And I am concerned when people are made to feel second-rate because they don&#8217;t have a particular gift. You don&#8217;t see too many people chasing after &#8220;gifts of administration&#8221; (v.28)&#8230;<br />
 <br />
Has this even answered your question?</p>
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		<title>By: hayesy</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1970</link>
		<dc:creator>hayesy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 04:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1970</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;hahaha a &lt;a href=&quot;http://adrianwarnock.com/2006/10/audio-sermons-mark-driscoll.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;charismatic-with-a-seatbelt&lt;/a&gt; is what I am :P Mark Driscoll invented the term, basically it&#039;s someone who has charismatic theology (or at least, isn&#039;t a cessationist) but doesn&#039;t go completely nuts (charismaniac, with tambourines etc)

You make a good point. Perhaps I should qualify my recommendation: I recommend the book to discerning readers.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hahaha a <a href="http://adrianwarnock.com/2006/10/audio-sermons-mark-driscoll.htm" rel="nofollow">charismatic-with-a-seatbelt</a> is what I am <img src='http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  Mark Driscoll invented the term, basically it&#8217;s someone who has charismatic theology (or at least, isn&#8217;t a cessationist) but doesn&#8217;t go completely nuts (charismaniac, with tambourines etc)</p>
<p>You make a good point. Perhaps I should qualify my recommendation: I recommend the book to discerning readers.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1963</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 23:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1963</guid>
		<description>Ok, I can&#039;t work your buttons for some reason... vs 14 was supposed to be underlined.
 
vs 14 is this bit: &#039;so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes&#039;.


Having been grounded in truth, you CAN read and discern. Others, having been blown around by every wave of doctrine, have no such grounding, and guess what; they are carried around by the next wave, and the next, and never grow to &#039;mature manhood&#039;.


Note that I&#039;m not actually offering any commentary about the theological content you&#039;ve discussed, more the danger of saying that it doesn&#039;t matter what you fill your mind with. Some people have very little discernment, and so you actually may not being helping them to grow to maturity.


Incidentally, so I can answer an earlier question :) , I was wondering what the heck a &#039;charismatic-with-a-seatbelt&#039; is? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I can&#8217;t work your buttons for some reason&#8230; vs 14 was supposed to be underlined.<br />
 <br />
vs 14 is this bit: &#8216;so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes&#8217;.</p>
<p>Having been grounded in truth, you CAN read and discern. Others, having been blown around by every wave of doctrine, have no such grounding, and guess what; they are carried around by the next wave, and the next, and never grow to &#8216;mature manhood&#8217;.</p>
<p>Note that I&#8217;m not actually offering any commentary about the theological content you&#8217;ve discussed, more the danger of saying that it doesn&#8217;t matter what you fill your mind with. Some people have very little discernment, and so you actually may not being helping them to grow to maturity.</p>
<p>Incidentally, so I can answer an earlier question <img src='http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  , I was wondering what the heck a &#8216;charismatic-with-a-seatbelt&#8217; is? </p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/reading-charismaniac-books-and-liking-them/comment-page-1/#comment-1961</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 23:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecrazyaustralian.com/?p=215#comment-1961</guid>
		<description>&quot;A discerning reader should be able to spot them, however&quot;


And therein lies the problem, no? You have been brought up on solid food, on truthful teaching, so you have the luxury of being discerning. Consider especially vs 14.
Ephesians 4:11-16: And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A discerning reader should be able to spot them, however&#8221;</p>
<p>And therein lies the problem, no? You have been brought up on solid food, on truthful teaching, so you have the luxury of being discerning. Consider especially vs 14.<br />
Ephesians 4:11-16: And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.</p>
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