Uh, maybe we do need God after all. Dawkins won’t like this.
I found this article in last week’s New Scientist magazine:
Does God have a place in a rational world?
New Scientist
Michael Reilly, La Jolla, CaliforniaWE’RE on the Pacific coast, miles from southern California’s still-
raging wildfires, but talk of conflagration fills the air. Some of the
best minds in science are gathered here at the seaside resort of La
Jolla, together with some of the world’s most insistent non-believers,
to take a fresh look at the existence or otherwise of God. And one
thing is clear: the edifice of “new atheism” is burning.The first firebrand is lobbed into the audience by Edward Slingerland,
an expert on ancient Chinese thought and human cognition at the
University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. “Religion is not
going away,” he announced. Even those of us who fancy ourselves
rationalists and scientists, he said, rely on moral values – a set of
distinctly unscientific beliefs.Where, for instance, does our conviction that human rights are
universal come from? “Humans’ rights to me are as mysterious as the
holy trinity,” he told the audience at the Salk Institute for
Biological Studies. “You can’t do a CT scan to show where humans’
rights are, you can’t cut someone open and show us their human
rights,” he pointed out. “It’s not an empirical thing, it’s just
something we strongly believe. It’s a purely metaphysical entity.”This is a far cry from the first “Beyond Belief” symposium a year ago,
at which many militant non-believers, including evolutionary biologist
Richard Dawkins and author Sam Harris, came together to hammer home
the virtues of atheism (New Scientist, 18 November 2006, p 8). That
gathering made much of the idea that humans can be moral without
believing in God, and that science should do away with religion
altogether.The mood at this follow-up conference was different. Last year’s event
was something of an “atheist love fest” said some, who urged a more
wide-ranging discourse this time round. While all present agreed that
rational, evidence-based thinking should always be the basis of how we
live our lives, it was also conceded that people are irrational by
nature, and that faith, religion, culture and emotion must also be
recognised as part of the human condition. Even the title of this
year’s meeting, “Beyond Belief II: Enlightenment 2.0″, suggested the
need for revision, reform and a little more tolerance.Such was the message from evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson of
Binghamton University, New York. He suggested that humans’ religious
beliefs may have evolved over time, thanks to the advantages they
conferred as a sort of social glue holding together groups that
developed them.Wilson was not saying religion is good or bad, simply that it has
evolved to be hard-wired into our brains, and therefore cannot be
ignored. “Adaptation is the gold standard against which reality must
be judged,” he said. “The unpredictability and unknown nature of our
environment may mean that factual knowledge isn’t as useful as the
behaviours we have evolved to deal with this world.”Stuart Kauffman of the University of Calgary in Canada, an expert in
complex systems and the origin of life, took that argument and ran
with it. No matter how far science advances, there will be aspects of
nature that remain unknowable, he said. As an example, he cited
Darwinian pre-adaptations – in which organisms evolve traits that end
up having beneficial side effects – which are so random as to be
completely unforeseeable.Fact-based knowledge can never provide all the answers, he concluded.
“If we don’t know what’s going happen, we have to live our lives
anyway… We live our lives largely not knowing. That means reason is
an insufficient guide.”Though Kauffman declared himself an atheist, he argued from this that
it may be apt to invoke the concept of God as a proxy for such gaps in
our knowledge. “I’d say that it’s wise to use the word ‘God’”, he
continued. “I know it’s very freighted, but it also carries with it
awe and reverence. I want to use the God word on purpose, to reinvent
creativity in the natural universe. The natural universe, nothing
supernatural.”
“I want to use the God word on purpose, to reinvent creativity in the
natural universe – nothing supernatural”Chemist Peter Atkins of the University of Oxford, one of the more hard-
line atheists in the room, did not let this go unchallenged. He chided
fellow participants for not being sufficiently proud about what
science can accomplish. Given time and persistence, science will
conquer all of nature’s mysteries, he said. He even proposed that
atheist scientists signal their intent to do just that by adopting a
flag with a Mandelbrot set as its emblem.So can scientific and religious world views ever be reconciled?
Harris, author of The End of Faith, declared that they could not, and
provided an uncompromising exposition on the evils of religion.Away from the meeting, philosopher Daniel Dennett of Tufts University
in Medford, Massachusetts, told New Scientist that as irrational as
human minds may be, calm, firm introduction of reason into the world’s
classrooms could over time purge them of religion.For all its fiery rhetoric, this year’s Beyond Belief conference razed
neither the new atheist movement nor, of course, religion itself. But
it certainly lit the touch paper.
Wow. New Scientist is normally so against religion as to be humorous! What do you make of it?

Without having heard the talks, I have to base this opinion on the cited material. Kaufmann is full of s**t. Morals don’t need to be material to have an empirical basis, and we certainly don’t need to consider ethics a matter of opinion in the absence of divine intelligence. Also, just because people act irrationally doesn’t mean that they should, or that they are hopeless. Not knowing everything has never stopped us before, and one of the first steps in becoming a reasonable person is acknowledging that there are some things you just don’t know (yet) and that that is OK. Evolution is cleverer than you are, I see no reason why some traits might end up being more useful than they were originally, that even seems like something that would be magnified by selection. Finally, the word God has way to much baggage to be a suitable word for the unknown or alleged unknowable, At least choose a word that doesn’t imply intelligence and agency.
Dang, I said “to” instead of “too” in the second to last line. My bad.
Thanks for the comment. It’s good to have a counter opinion.
I hope you stick around, because I’d like to hear more of your thoughts.
I’m interested: can you back up your comment empirically?
Can you conclusively demonstrate that “Morals don’t need to be material to have an empirical basis” either rationally or empirically?
Or is it your opinion against theirs?
I thought I’d just point out that I’m actually strongly against this part of the article: “I want to use the God word on purpose, to reinvent creativity in the natural universe – nothing supernatural” (for different reasons).
Love to hear your response, thanks again,
Hayesy
** the “divine” impedes moral development **
You have only to step outside Western thought patterns to understand how much atheists and theists alike operate on a narrow bandwidth of “knowledge”. It’s merely a hangover from imbibing too much xianity. There is no inherent relationship between religion and morals.
If your model of religion is based on the big-3 monotheisms, you won’t even understand Roman or Greek religious beliefs and practices so vigorously suppressed by the church militant.
Xian “ethics” is irrational, otherworldly, and impractical. It promises much, and delivers nothing. The kingdom of god will be childlike. The pristine world to come would need no Law or Ethics, religious or secular. Jesus’ ‘interim ethic’– “take no thought for tomorrow” — didn’t outlast one generation of dupes.
The world did not come to an end. The vengeful judge and his 10,000 angels failed to put their official stamp on the great unwashed living in the urban slums of the eastern Roman Empire. Ever since, puritanism has been the official party line.
Chinese culture was far luckier. From that very rational, this worldly, and practical book, The Analects, attributed to Confucius (written 500 years before an alleged Jesus!):
6:20 Fan Ch’ih asked what constituted wisdom. The Master said, “To give one’s self earnestly to the duties due to men, and, while respecting spiritual beings, to keep aloof from them, may be called wisdom.”
15:23 Tsze-kung asked, saying, “Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one’s life?” The Master said, “Is not ‘reciprocity’ such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.”
[trans. S.R. McIntyre 2003]
No god is needed to police human behavior. All ethics is irreducibly social. Harming others can not be generalized; otherwise, no culture could exist.
In the U.S., one Civil War (1861-65), the vote for women (1920), one Civil Rights Movement (1956-65) — that’s the turbulent blood-soaked price paid so far for extending equality (reciprocity) beyond the slave owning, white, male, property holders who would not displace themselves from power even as they created a new mode of “representative” democracy.
There’s no need to invoke evolution (or memes) — unless they’re Lamarkian — each generation of persons teaches the next. There’s openness to moral development.
Haven’t you heard of moral development? Do you think that all ethical systems are equivalent?
A religious gene is as absurd as a Kantian category — it simply posits a question-begging “faculty” to gratify wishful thinking. Why does the opium poppy induce sleep — why because it contains a soporific faculty! Moliere. Le Malade imaginaire.
bipolar2
copyright asserted 2007
Thanks for your comment! There were 3 things I’d like to respond to:
1. “No god is needed to police human behavior” – Aye, Stalin showed that. What I want to know is, without God, why should we be moral? For social reasons, I think you suggested. Why shoud I care about that?
2. “Do you think that all ethical systems are equivalent?” – Of course not. Do you? You seem to. How do you defend that, given your assumptions (we don’t need God to be moral)?
3. I’d just like to suggest that you might have a slight misunderstanding of Christianity. It is not a system of ethics, and you can’t be a Christian just by following them.
Thanks, look forward to hearing your response.
Hi again. I am going to write a little about my view ethics in this post. First let me say that I am not a relativist, I think that it is possible to make universally inclusive moral statements. The empirical basis for this is our shared humanity. I believe that the very definition of what it means to be human implies a basis for morality: we love, we think, we feel, we struggle, we grow angry, we empathize, we share all of these things, and I think that is enough to develop a universal morality. A bit of opinion enters when you ask what should be valued in a moral system . I think that a good moral system is one that maximizes the happiness of those who follow it. Due to physical and social realities, this morality system practically necessitates the golden rule. Most specifically, my current moral system most closely matches the “universal utilitarianism” described in the essay “The Ineffable Carrot and the Infinite Stick” at ebonmusings(dot)org/atheism. I only recently found this article, and was amazed at how closely I agreed with the author.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I must say I much prefer universal utilitarianism to complete moral relativism (who wants a moral relativist on a Jury, for example?)
So the essence of what it is to be human necessitates a concern for others?I suppose that goes some what towards answering the “why be moral?” question.
(Thinking aloud here) I think there are 2 problems with ethics without a supreme authority:
1. The ‘why should we bother?’ question.
2. The “who’s right?” question.
One of the more intellectually honest philosophers, whose name escapes me, said that the most moral position is complete selfishness (he was an atheist). I think one of the more difficult questions to answer is why should **I** bother to be moral?
Here’s another issue I have with universal utilitarianism – inevitably there enters some relativism, which you refer to as “a bit of opinion”. My concern is that it becomes difficult, maybe impossible, to differentiate between opposing claims as to which actions actually DO achieve the greatest good for the greatest number.
It’s all too easy to follow the utilitarianism path all the way to, for example, genocide of the mentally ill because of the burden they place on the greater population.
That feels fundamentally wrong to me, and I expect to most everybody. I call that feeling a conscience, and I think its pervasiveness is a strong indication of a moral order outside our own existence.
I am assuming you mean “why should we bother being good or trying hard if we will just die and that will be the end of it” for the first question. I believe that the point of life is in living, in learning and experiencing new things, and in developing meaningful relationships. It doesn’t much bother e to know that I won’t directly benefit from the effects of some of my long term actions (like living in a sustainable way) or altruistic acts. I do these tings because it makes me happy to know that someone else is now more happy, or that my descendants, the ideas I cherish, and humanity in general benefits from my actions. I guess that my existence is validated by the fact that it isn’t the end of the world when I die, just me. That said, I’m not going down without a fight! I thoroughly enjoy life, and want to experience more of it, I want to learn all that I can and do great things (it would be nice to live on in memory and deed). To wrap up, I don’t think that living in a universe that lacks inherent purpose means that human lives are meaningless.
As far how we should tell who is right, I think that introducing sort of scientific ideas of observing the results of a given moral statement and comparing it to an ideal to determine its effectiveness works. My ideal is happiness, since I am pretty sure everyone wants to be happy (it might not be their main goal, but I’m sure they wouldn’t object (-:). Of course, people don’t necessarily share the same standard for judging outcomes. Objectivism, the materialist ethics system formulated by Ayn Rand, for example, judges actions by how much they increase the power of the actor (I think). In response to this system I ask, what is the inherent value of being powerful? We often hear of rich, powerful people who are miserable, people want to be happy.
I started to respond to your previous comment, so I’ll continue that in a sec.
I share your criticism of objectivism.
The problem with your ‘scientific’ approach to ethics is that it is impossible to observe the results scientifically, because the criteria by which you decide if it ‘works’ are subjectively decided upon.
Do you think happiness is purposeful enough to provide meaning?
Something to consider: which comes first, happiness or meaning? Is meaning a requirement for happiness? And does directing that search for meaning towards happiness make both aims impossible to reach? I say this because it seems to me that pure hedonists, who make happiness their ultimate end, rarely reach it, but those who seek other ends, such as volunteers, often achieve happiness as a by-product.
I don’t know whether you agree with me, but I wonder if we perhaps need meaning to be happy.
Refering to your previous comment:
I suppose that is an adequate summary of my question, although I would place more emphasis on the lack of consequences.
If the point of life is in living, in learning and experiencing new things (seemingly quite hedonistic), doesn’t altruism just get in the way of that?
This is quite profound: “I don’t think that living in a universe that lacks inherent purpose means that human lives are meaningless.”
I’ve never really heard anyone try to make a case either way, although Samuel Beckett’s play Waiting For Godot is fairly convincing of the meaninglessness of life if the universe is meaningless.
I think two factors contribute to the lack of meaning for humanity in such a universe:
1. Arbitrariness – The Universe arose by chance. Life arose by chance. We evolved by chance. You were born by a chance encounter between two products of chance, and a chance winner of a sperm olympics. You will die according to chance. By chance, human existance will eventually end.
In all that, we can only conclude that the poor sod struggling for meaning is no more than an accident in a hostile universe. To try to impose meaning on such an arbitrary existence seems foolish, and surely any meaning imposed will be superficial?
2. Transcience – Nothing we achieve is permanent, nothing we can do or think or feel will last. Compared to the eons that have passed and will pass, our existence and even the memory of the longest-remebered individuals will pass by in such a flash as to be not worth mentioning.
Even in the short period that we call recorded history, the greatest figures of yesteryear are but scratches on fragments of pottery today.
I’m glad you have found meaning, because I would hate to face such a world alone.
Sorry this has been such a hodge-podge of stuff. Looking forward to hearing your response,
Andrew
I don’t think that my worldview would best be described as generally hedonistic, since I don’t don’t think that pleasure is the same as happiness. Happiness is characterized by feeling content, secure, satisfied, cheerful, etc. Pleasure, on the other hand, is enjoyable, but brief and often comes at a price that injures or risks long term happiness. I emphasize the importance of empathy in making moral decisions. Knowing that you have engendered happiness or reduced suffering can make you happy, just as other things can make you happy. As for the relationship between meaning and happiness, I think they are practically the same thing. The things that provide meaning in your life are also the things that make you happy. I understand that for many religious people, their faith provides meaning and happiness, but I don’t think religious faith is required for either. The issue of ultimate meaning is somewhat silly in my opinion, because so much depends on what your viewpoint already is. To me, meaning and purpose are human things, and would not even matter if humans did not exists to care. I think it is amazing that we exist at all, when there could just as easily been no life in the universe (it seems). Of course, life may have been inevitable, what I know about the history of the universe suggests a continuous march towards greater complexity. From a super heated. 100% homogeneous state, to matter, to heavy atoms, to chemicals, to polymers, to single cells, to sponges, jellyfish, worms, fish, land animals, primates, humans and perhaps onward. Anyway, I have a question for you as well. Why is it comforting to believe that an all-powerful, all-seeing intelligence exists? Even if it is loving, how is it a nicer sort of existence if our purpose derives from doing what it wants?
A good distinction, I think I might have been using hedonism incorrectly to describe what you call happiness, and all that is associated with its pursuit.
“life may have been inevitable, … the history of the universe suggests a continuous march towards greater complexity
An interesting observation, since the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics predicts the opposite. This law can be stated as “the total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value”
Essentially, the natural tendency of things is towards a less ordered state. To reverse this tendency, energy must be used. This still does not decrease OVERALL entropy, however, just that of the system – the source of the energy becomes more disordered and thus overall, entropy increases.
The Universe can be viewed as one such system, and according to this law should become less ordered, not more. Eventually, physicists predict, we will face energy degradation as useful energy in complex states(chemical – oil, glycerine; nuclear, ect) becomes less useful forms (heat, sound) in less complex states. When all the energy in the universe has been thus degraded, the universe will be all one temperature and it will be impossible to do work (make use of energy).
I say this because it is interesting, as you observe, that the Universe’s march seems to disobey this law. I’ve never looked into it, and I’m sure there exists a scientific explanation… but its worth thinking about.
“As for the relationship between meaning and happiness, I think they are practically the same thing.”
Wow. I’ve always thought them to be completely different. I don’t doubt there is a dependent relationship, but are they the same?
I have no argument to support this, I just reckon not.
I don’t think religious faith is required for either
People find meaning in love, beauty, truth, helping others. I don’t doubt it is possible to be purposeful in life, to do meaningful things, to experience meaning. But I believe that we have a thirst for a deeper, transcendent meaning; the other things may go some way but not the whole way towards fulfillment. I also think its possible to supress this thirst, but not healthy.
“Why is it comforting to believe that an all-powerful, all-seeing intelligence exists?”
Haha in 25 words or less?
I’m about to go out. I’ll do my best quickly:
1. I was created for a purpose.
2. There is an answer to the ‘why are we here?’ question. I know why I’m here and I know for what purpose I was created.
3. Humans were created for relationships. More specifically, a relationship: with God. Enjoying that relationship is indescribable, but trust me, incredibly fulfilling (and a whole lot more).
4. Peace – I’m not concerned about death, the future ect. (See the latest post on this blog: Freedom (and True Freedom)
5. Knowing the sweet release of sins forgiven. Set free of guilt. (That’s Jesus)
6. Hope – a certain hope for a glorious future.
Just quickly, “how is it a nicer sort of existence if our purpose derives from doing what it wants?” I suspect this is something that is not possible to understand from ‘the outside’. It’s what we were made to do, God has not made it a chore to do ‘what he wants’ – it is, instead, a wondrous joy to do it. I believe I was created to worship God, and one way of doing that is enjoying what He has given me. It is a joy to worship him; and taking joy in Him is worship! (see DesiringGod.org for more.)
That’s all I got off the top of my head.
Thanks for the conversation, its been really stimulating! I’m going away for a week, but if you want to keep going I’ll continue on my return.
Keep thinking,
Andrew
The Second Law is often misunderstood. There is no reason that complexity cannot spontaneously arise. What the second law implies is that it will not arise without a source of concentrated heat energy to fuel the process. The universe right after the big bang was extremely hot and concentrated, some parts congealed into galaxies, causing pockets of high energy as the universe expanded. Energy flowing from hot, simple things into cooler, more complex things does not increase the overall order or energy in the universe, the heat loss of one “pays” for the complexity of the other. Have a good trip.
Just a thought… is there a message in the fact that atheists, by in large, are politically liberal? Is atheism an offshoot of believing strongly in government? Does the liberal mind
reject one God, while embracing their new “Socialist” god? Doesn’t this indicate that the atheist has a “faith” as strong as any Christian? And if so, doesn’t it seem hypocritical that an atheist shows disdain for a Christian who has faith, when the atheist has such a strong faith themself? Believe in Jesus Christ. He is the only way to salvation and liberty. There is no other name under heaven by which you can be saved —- none!
BillE, please define faith. Hayesy, please don’t volunteer your definition until he has.