“Back in the 1960s, the woman had been told that “life was basically coming to an end for her”, according to Sisters of St Joseph spokeswoman Sister Monica Cavanagh. But she recovered after asking the Josephite sisters to pray to Mary MacKillop on her behalf and being given a relic of Mary’s clothing to wear.”
… The Age reports. Jesus said “Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven…” (Matthew 6:9)
Why do Roman Catholics pray to Saints? (Or not-even-Saints, for that matter…) Do they think God can’t hear them directly? The curtain is torn, He is listening! We don’t need to pray to anyone else, nor does it honour the true mediator:
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5)
« Do Catholics Worship Mary? The Pope and the lure of false idols »
What I find fascinating is how obvious its not Biblical.
Yes, the Catholics have the authority of tradition and the pope all mixed in – but how and why did praying to anyone but God get a hearing?
To make up a silly scenario:
Someone says “Hey lets pray to Mary”
The obvious response would be “Na, I’d prefer praying to God cause He’s better”
<i>Why do Roman Catholics pray to Saints? (Or not-even-Saints, for that matter…) Do they think God can’t hear them directly?</i>
It’s always helpful to represent your opponent’s views accurately, otherwise you look rather silly. Catholic teaching never says that we can’t talk directly with God. To use a like example, why would you ask a friend to pray for you when you can simply pray to God directly?
<i>For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5)</i>
It’s unfortunate that most Protestants don’t read their Bible enough to understand it properly. If they had, they would notice that the same chapter talks about intercessary (i.e. intermediary) prayer.
If only Protestants were as dedicated to study of the Scriptures as Catholics are …
Hi David, nice to see you around here
It’s news to me that Paul’s urges for intercessory prayer refer to prayers to saints. Here I was thinking the letter was written to the leader of a living congregation, urging that they pray for others (i.e. intercessory prayer). But no, now I see that, while supplications, prayers, and thanksgivings refer to prayers offered by living people to God, intercession refers to prayers offered by dead saints.
Is there no difference between a believer praying to God for others (who, in the case of a king, is unlikely to be praying themself), and a believer praying to others, to God?
If only Catholics studied the Scriptures!
You do make a good point here though: “It’s always helpful to represent your opponent’s views accurately… Catholic teaching never says that we can’t talk directly with God.”
While you might just have caught the end of a bit of hyperbole, its a good point, well-made, and duly noted.
“To use a like example, why would you ask a friend to pray for you when you can simply pray to God directly?”
Good question. I don’t know. But I do know that in this case the friend prays in addition to, not instead of, the person.
I’m not saying that 1 Timothy 2 speaks specifically about the intercession of the saints, but merely about the concept of intercessory prayer generally. If Christ were the only mediator in the way that you suggest, then it should stand to reason that we should not ask others to pray for us, wouldn’t it?
With respect to the intercession of the saints, I think it’s fundamentally the same concept as getting others to pray for us. And considering that the saints are alive in Christ (not dead, as you suggest) and they are part of the body of Christ, there should seem nothing particularly unusual about the concept.
“I think it’s fundamentally the same concept as getting others to pray for us”
I can’t see the similarity. When we ask others to pray for us, do we do that instead of praying directly to God? Do we assume that their prayers are more effective than ours? Do we pray to our friends? Do we carry around medallions of our friends to whom we pray?
I’m not confident in my understanding of what happens after we die or the end times. But doesn’t 1 Thessalonians 4:16 say “And the dead in Christ will rise first.”?
You say the saints are alive in Christ. I say, yes, we are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Romans 6:11). But Paul says they are dead in Christ, and will (future tense) be raised.
What do you make of Jesus’ instruction: “Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven…”?
Here’s a question – would you ask a brother in your church:
“make use of that particular privilege given to you to [request]…. I promise you, O blessed [name], to be ever mindful of this great favor, and I will never cease to honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to do all in my power to encourage devotion to you”
That’s a selection, almost verbatim, of the better of the two prayers to ‘St. Jude’ on this site. I say it is the better because it asks Jude primarily to pray for the prayer; in contrast to the other:
O Holy St Jude!
Apostle and Martyr,
great in virtue and rich in miracles,
near kinsman of Jesus Christ,
faithful intercessor for all who invoke you,
special patron in time of need;
to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart,
and humbly beg you,
to whom God has given such great power,
to come to my assistance;
help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition.
I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me
and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you. Amen.
St. Jude, pray for us and all who honor thee and invoke thy aid.
(Say 3 Our Father’s, 3 Hail Mary’s, and 3 Glory Be’s after this.)
Oh, there is a difference between asking a friend to pray for us and asking a saint to come to our assistance, complete with promises of devotion. Not to mention the superstitious side. Why those particular prayers, why those particular numbers?
As the saints clearly refer to the elect within in the body of Christ. I bestow upon myself the title of St. Luke, everyone can now feel free to pray to me and I will bring your prayers before God when I have some free time later.
Article 22 of the 39 Articles of Religion
Of Purgatory.
The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, worshipping and adoration as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saint, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God.
Hayesy, you seem to have deleted my previous comments. Could you please tell me why you have done so?
Hrmmm – Good question… we’re (as in, my awesome techiue friend) are in the process of changing servers. It’s possible it got lost in the process. Luckily wordpress emails me a copy of all comments. I found the email – it will be back online shortly. Sorry
I should point out that simply because you can’t see the similarity doesn’t mean it’s not there.
I’d also point out that we would only pray to saints in the generic sense that praying simply means talking. So yes, we do pray to our friends, even though we might not recognise it as such.
I’d also ask where you can point to medallions in the Catechism. If it’s not an official teaching of the Church, you don’t have any grounds upon which to criticise Catholic doctrine at this point.
You say the saints are alive in Christ. I say, yes, we are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus†(Romans 6:11). But Paul says they are dead in Christ, and will (future tense) be raised.
I could be wrong in my understanding of temporal existence, but we’re reading this passage after Paul wrote it, aren’t we? Additionally, I’d point out that since the saints are no longer living inside of time and space as we understand it, talk of temporality seems rather silly.
What do you make of Jesus’ instruction: “Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven…�
I would say that unless these are the only words you ever use in prayer, then you’re doing precisely what you criticise Catholics of.
“So yes, we do pray to our friends, even though we might not recognise it as such.”
Ok, fair point – since I don’t know enough about prayer to argue otherwise, maybe I’ll concede that I ‘pray’ to my friends. Consider it conceded, but only because I lack a counter-arguement, not because I’m convinced.
My question still stands, however: would you ‘pray’ to your friends in the manner of those prayers in my comment above?
If there is no official teaching on medals (*if*), then you’re right. I can’t criticise doctrine. I’ll criticise practice.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re driving at with your talk of temporality. Perhaps you could explain a little more? And I’ll just observe that this phrase somewhat assumes your conclusion: “I’d point out that since the saints are no longer living inside of time and space as we understand it” – who says they’re living anywhere? Perhaps they aren’t living anywhere, until they are raised…
But again, I know nothing of these matters.
Finally, you would say that “unless these are the only words you ever use in prayer, then you’re doing precisely what you criticise Catholics of.”
Unless, perhaps, one could find other examples of prayers in Scripture which follow the model of this prayer but use different words. Jesus’ own prayer springs to mind.
Let’s see… He addresses it to the Father, tick; request that His name would be glorified, tick; etc…
When Jesus says “this is how you are to pray”, is he giving the exact words, or the correct manner? Which is the more important change: from ‘our Father in heaven’ to ‘dear heavenly Father’, or from ‘our Father in heaven’ to ‘dear St. Jude’?
Is He more concerned that you say the words in order, or that you pray to God, for His glory and His kingdom and His will and His providence and His forgiveness and His deliverance.
I humbly submit that Christ, our example, was giving us a model on which to base our prayers, not the only permissable words. It is fallicious to say we need to take either the words exactly or not at all.
um excuse me? I am totally alive and not dead thanks very much.
haha who said you were dead?
You said the Saints were dead.
Oh! hahaha
You lot have lost me, I’m finding the italicising and quoting hard to follow, so I’ll just add my two cents as someone who was raised a Catholic and was then reformed
The Catholic understanding of Sainthood is very different to Paul’s. Paul refers to all believers as saints. e.g Romans 1:7 the letter is addressed to ‘the saints’, and Eph 1:18 speaks of the inheritance of the saints, which the addressees have been qualified for. Catholic ‘sainthood’ requires the proving of two (?) miracles, and a whole lot of red tape. I think it’s reasonably clear this is not what Paul has in mind.
Is praying only talking? Seriously? I don’t know Greek but are ‘pray’ and ‘speak’ interchangeable?
Even if you want to dispute prayer ‘to’ the saints, I would still posit that the Catholic veneration of saints is idolatrous and unbiblical.
Paul insists there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. He also encourages the Colossians to pray ‘for’ him. I am just thinking out loud here – I think there is a difference between saying “pray for me” and “I pray, dear Haysey, that you would pray for me”. In fact, that seems a ludicrous thing to pray, as though Andrew is omnipresent and could hear me? Can the saints even hear prayers? Hmmm … questions, questions.
Do you get where I’m going? My problem isn’t “St Jude pray for me” (though I take exception to the ‘St.’ title), but can St Jude hear me? If he can, then why pray particularly to ‘recognised saints’, why not ‘pray’ that our dead friends, relatives etc, would pray for us? Thus, if it has something to do with a special ‘in’ with God that the ‘recognised saints’ have, then we have moved out of the realm of asking a friend to pray ‘for’ us, and into thinking the ‘Saints’ have a special mediatory place that The Bible teaches belongas only to the Lord Jesus.
Sorry, convoluted and confusing?
No, very clear and very helpful. Your last sentence is gold!
It’s fine if you want to criticise “Catholic” practice, but if you want to do so, you should probably point to something concrete to establish that the practice in particularly prevalent. Exactly how many Catholics are you talking about? Fifty percent? Ninety percent? Or are you simply trying to suggest that fringe practices are near universal?
Ok, forgetting that there are enough practitioners to make their manufacture a worthwhile business, I’ll just pretend that its just the people I know. Poor practice, but I’ll not criticise the whole church for the medals.
Have you stopped defending prayer?